200 – Michael Clary on Loser Theology: Why the Weak Will Not Inherit the Earth

Order “Offensive Christianity” here - https://offensivechristianitybook.com/

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Pre-order Michael Clary’s “Loser Theology: Why the Weak Will Not Inherit the Earth” (Canon Press, ships Aug 4; Amazon ~2 weeks later) - https://losertheology.com/

Michael Clary’s Substack - https://dmichaelclary.com/

Michael Clary on X - https://twitter.com/DMichaelClary

Referenced in the episode:

• Aaron Renn’s positive world / neutral world / negative world framework
• Jamie Bambrick / Clear Truth Media, “How Loser Theology Is Poisoning the Church” (the article that named the concept)
• Michael’s original talk/essay, “The Poison of Pietism”

Summary

Is your church quietly training you to lose? Chase sits down with pastor and author Michael Clary to talk through his new book Loser Theology: Why the Weak Will Not Inherit the Earth (Canon Press). Michael diagnoses a malady in the modern church — a "fortune-cookie" spirituality that dresses up passivity as holiness, treats giving up power as the heart of the gospel, and conditions Christians (especially men) to be doormats. Chase and Michael, who go back to their Acts 29 days, dig into the sound-bite theology of Keller, Russell Moore, and Beth Moore, the difference between gentle-and-lowly and firm-and-direct pastoral care, and a whole-Bible reading of the hard sayings — turn the other cheek, servant of all, do not resist the evildoer — that refuses both wooden literalism and liberal escape hatches. The positive vision: high agency Christianity, rooted in the creation mandate and the Great Commission, that recovers authority, dominion, and courage as gifts to be stewarded rather than idols to be surrendered. Whether you’ve felt the dissonance and couldn’t name it or you’re ready to fight it, this one will put steel in your spine.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome back to Foolproof Theology. My name is Chase Davis, and I'm your host. Somewhere along the way, the church started handing men in the church a losing playbook. Never push back, never assert yourself, kind of be a doormat, and call it Christ-likeness. My guest today has a name for it. Michael Clary calls it Loser Theology, and he's written a whole book on it to pull it apart. He's a pastor, an author, and really an old friend from Acts 29 days. I've kept in touch with Michael. We'll talk a little bit about that on the episode. But he's back on the episode. He's a returning guest to talk about his new book, Loser Theology, Why the Weak Will Not Inherit the Earth. And we kind of get into the platitudes and fortune cookie sound bites that a lot of pastors and theologians pass on for wisdom this day and why gentle and lowly can't be your only gear. And we made the case for what he calls high agency Christianity. You're going to hear a lot of familiar tones in here if you've read my book. If you haven't, go pick up my book at offensive Christianitybook.com. A lot of overlap. Michael's broadening the scope and really he calls uh, well, he names names in there. And I think it's really helpful, really entertaining, and we have a great conversation. Before we get into that, though, I wanted to remind you of a couple things. One, sign up for commonplace.study. If you're doing any kind of theological inquiry, study, anything like that. Commonplace is the tool I wish I had years ago. It's an AI-powered research assistant that covers more than 300 years of reformed and Puritan sources. I mean, I've got so much on there. And if you've got any recommendations, I'd love to hear from you. You've got the standard Calvin Owen Spurgeon, but you've also got Turitan and the Westminster Standards, even Latin scholastics that have never been translated into English before. Every answer comes back with actual sources, not made up quotes. If you've ever tried to research with AI, you know it hallucinates all the time. Mine is not going to do that. It is hard-coded to point you back to the sources, as some say, Ad Fontes. So start your 14D, 14-day free trial today. It's 14 days for free at commonplace.study. Love for you to sign up. Love for you to give me feedback, especially if you're a podcast listener. Would love to hear from you on either things you love about it, things you don't. Let me know. Commonplace.study sign up today. And then a second thing I wanted to make sure you knew about listener that ties right into today's conversation is our Burn the Ships conference out here at the Well Church, July 31st to August 2nd in Boulder, Colorado. We do this every year. It's always a great time. This is our third year, it's our biggest year yet. We're having Dr. Stephen Wolfe, Dr. Joe Rigney, yours truly, and Pastor Matt Patrick out. And if you're a man who's tired of losing ground, complaint your flag with us. We're going to have a great time. Tickets are only 99 bucks. It comes with meals, it comes with a concert, a workout, and great talks, great fellowship. 17 and under are free. You can register at boulderwell.org slash burntheps. Do it today. Boulderwell.org slash burnthips. You need to do it now because, well, depends, depending on when you're listening to this episode, the conference may have already happened. So if you're listening as it's coming out, make sure you sign up today. All right, let's get into my conversation with Michael Cleary. With D Michael Cleary, that does not stand for doctor. We have found that out. He's very explicit that he's not a doctor, but he thinks like one. He's a very proficient and accomplished pastor and theologian. Michael, thank you so much for coming back on the program. Thank you, Chase. I appreciate you having me on, man. So we're here to talk about your book, Loser Theology: Why the Weak Will Not Inherit the Earth. I'm really excited about this book. I hope everybody goes and pre-orders it. It's pre-order right now, and I'll find the link and put it in the show notes. When does it release again, Michael?

SPEAKER_01 3:47

It's August 4th, is when it ships from Canon, and you can just go to losertheology.com to take you there.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Excellent. Losertheology.com. We'll put a link in the show notes. This is going to kind of be a blockbuster style book in my mind. It's in the same vein as my book, Offensive Christianity, kind of different applications. Um, very thoughtful book, very pastoral book you've written. Uh kind of share with the audience, you know, what is the thesis? What are we talking about with loser theology? This is uh it's I I think it's a little provocative uh to say some people have loser theology. What do you mean by this?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Yeah, I mean, loser theology is a provocative title, but there are other books that also have a provocative title that that you might consider picking up. This one, for example, Offensive Christianity by Jay Chase Davis. Um, you can get at offensive christianity book.com. And uh it is selling very well. He's doing a great job. But uh yeah, so I've read the book, I love it. And so for for your listeners who may not know, Chase and I, we go back a few years in Acts 29 days, and so this this is really fun, Chase. Uh, because whenever we first started talking, both of us are nobody guys, just in Acts 29, trying to figure out what do we do in crazy world that we're in now. And then here we got a couple books published. Um, I'm super excited that that your your podcast is killing it, your book is killing it, and and so this is just this is very exciting for me, and it's an honor to be on your show. So, about the title. Um some of some some people may remember Clear Truth Media, uh, which was uh you know a uh basically it's a media company. Um, and several of our friends uh wrote for that. I wrote for that, Chase wrote for that. Um I published an article with them that I called the poison of pietism based on a talk that I'd given at a conference. And then the editor for Clear Truth Media is Jamie Bambrick. And Jamie, by the time he published it, it says, How loser theology is poisoning the church. And I was like, that's a clever title. And so I've been running with it ever since. And and it does capture what is a malady in the modern church, which is a lot of Christians think that their duty is to be losers and to never fight, to never push back, to uh be a doormat that gets walked all over. And that's a big problem. And offensive Christianity, Chase's book and my book, Loser Theology, are both aimed at addressing it.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, and I really appreciate it because some of the stuff I've talked about on the podcast previously, for the listener, you can go back and find uh episodes related to persecution, suffering, how persecution isn't the end-all-be-all goal of the Christian life, actually, it turns out, uh, even though that's been fed to us. And I think Michael is producing a resource that's very helpful, uh cogent, and well thought out. Yeah, it's funny, uh, kind of going back to what you said earlier, you know, you kind of gave me one of my first speaking opportunities at your conference. Um, and I was so thankful for that. And I talked about winsomeness there, and that um you people can go find that on my podcast and on YouTube as well. One thing I've wrestled with, and I wanted to get kind of get your thoughts on it, is a lot of both of our thinking was shaped and kind of steeped in young wrestlers reform, Acts 29. You know, we are kind of in that ecosystem. I know for me, I'm a little bit younger than you. I was just trying to kind of follow the playbook of what kind of I was sold as like this is what a good church plant does, this is what a good pastor does. That led to us planting churches, maybe a little bit too soon, that led to us raising up elders, maybe a little bit too soon, but that's what they were encouraging us to do. So we were just trying to follow their lead. And the same thing happened with how we engage cultural topics, right? We were never uh promoting transgenderism or anything like that. But anytime we talked about sexuality, for example, it was it was fairly nuanced. Um, very clear biblically where we stood, but you know, we definitely were trying to not offend anyone. Um, there's a temptation to overreact. And some people have, you know, labeled the new movement as kind of a reactionary movement and kind of the pendulum swinging. How have you, as a pastor, as a man, uh kind of fought the temptation to not just throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that maybe overreact and like people could read my book and and see your title or whatever and think these are just reactionaries, these are, you know, uh they had a bad experience in Acts 29, they really don't have much to offer. How would you reply to to somebody that's kind of making that accusation?

SPEAKER_01 8:24

I would say if you read the book, you'll see that that's not the case. You make in your book a theological argument. Uh in loser theology, I make a theological argument born out of my own experience as a pastor. So my church planted in 2010. And at the time, if you know Aaron Wren's framework of positive world, neutral world, negative world, he identifies about 2014 as a shift from a time when the culture regarded Christianity as a as a at least neutral. Um, it's like it's not, it's not like you're hostile to Christianity, but the culture was kind of neutral, public square. But in 2014, it shifted into what he identifies as negative world. And negative world is a was like there's a market change to where the culture has turned more hostile against Christianity. So my church was planted in 2010, firmly in this neutral world territory. And we planted the church with the tools that I was equipped to use in seminary and acts 29 and you know other conference circuit and young restless and reformed world. And I see those as tools, and they're good tools, um, they're helpful tools. And so if you meet somebody out on the street or on the on a bus and you're having that conversation and the gospel comes up, you're going to probably be what some would call winsome. You're going to try to present yourself in a way that is uh friendly and warm and uh, you know, you're not going to be belligerent or hostile. That's good. That's that's a normal human way to interact with somebody. But if you're talking about a posture that should govern all civil discourse between Christians in the public square or from Christians in the public square, you cannot make that a blanket policy to where you get never give offense because the gospel is a message that confronts the idols and the wickedness of the world and says, You have sinned against the holy God, you're accountable to him, and if you do not repent and turn to Christ, you will suffer his wrath righteously, his righteous wrath for all eternity. And we don't want people to experience that fate. And so we want to uh tell them the gospel. But that means sometimes we're going to have to confront the evil that is in the world, not only for the sake of evangelism, but also for the sake of preserving a civil society that we want to live in. And so some people might see a title and they don't understand how book marketing works. You we're not in the Puritan era where the title is like would take up half a cover and it would be like 57 words. You know, it's where you that whole argument of a book is summarized in a title. In our day and age, you need something punchy and memorable that would get people's attention so it'll stand out. And that's what loser theology does. It's it's a label that makes somebody think, what is that all about? And then if you're interested, it it it confronts you with an idea that you would have to consider. But the book itself is not a I wrote it intentionally to not be a polemic. It's not, it's not trying to be um just nasty trolling. It is like there is a theology that has harmed the church. And as a pastor, I've dealt with a fallout of that, as I'm sure you have as well. And I don't want people to be harmed. I want people to be equipped with the courage that they need to live faithfully in the modern world. And so I wrote a book to to do that, to, to help them be um what I would consider, I know you use the language of agency, high agency Christianity, uh, the antidote to loser theology is what I would call a high agency Christian life.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Amen. That's great. And so with this loser theology concept, uh kind of walk me through kind of the the history, if you will, like how did this because when you when you describe it, when I read it in your book, to me it's very discernible. I mean, especially in with former affiliations we both had. But a lot of people may be like, man, I don't I don't see it. How are you seeing this? Where where did this come from? Um, it's easy to kind of pinpoint recent figures um or still predominant figures in kind of big evangelical institutions. Uh can you pinpoint besides 2014, does it go back further than that? Was this being propagated in like the emergent church, emerging church conversation? How would you kind of trace the hist history of loser theology maybe most recently in the church today?

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Yeah, loser theology is the label that I give it for the most recent version of it. But there this has been part of even uh part of the Christian tradition. There have been versions of this that have that have existed throughout our history. Um there was a movement, you know, a few centuries ago that would be labeled quietism, which I think is probably a similar phenomena to loser theology. Um there's the ascetics, the desert ascetics that uh were you know prominent in the you know the early you know fourth, fifth century uh after the time of Christ. So there there have been versions of this that have always been around. And I I think of it as an overdose on some some impulses that are good but are incomplete on their own. Um so the the scriptures teach about suffering, and the Bible gives us resources and and truths to be able to faithfully suffer, um, and even to endure persecution and to what what to do whenever you are marginalized and oppressed. Those things the Bible tells us how to handle that. What the Bible does not tell us to do is to pursue that or seek it as the goal of the Christian life. That's what loser theology trains us to do. And so the modern version of it is, you know, it it tends to traffic in these little pithy fortune cookie sayings. And what what I've done is over the last few years is I've personally tried to work out what there were things that I observed that bothered me. What and I tried to figure out what what is this? Why does this bother me? Something isn't right, but I didn't always have language for it and I would wrestle with it. And what I found is like, okay, these things are um little soundbite type of uh comments that have a ring of truth to it. They that and because they use the language of scripture, it feels right and it kind of works on your your reflexes to where it makes you feel like this feels feels good, even if there's something about it that seems off. And so I try to take that and and and uh think of think of a way to present it and pull it apart so that it it's it's digestible. Like, what is this thing that conditions Christians to feel like they're supposed to lose? And how is the scripture recruited to to make people feel that way such that in any given moment their impulse is to just lay down and to let let other people trample on them and to mistreat them and and to malign them because you get to be more like Jesus that way. And I notice that it it tends to isolate certain scriptures and favors them, and it leaves out other scriptures that tend to talk about duty and assertiveness and courage and agency. Those things are underrepresented. And so it's a lopsided view of the Christian life that that focuses everything on the interior realm. Um, and so you don't all that matters is I read my Bible and I pray and I go to church and I'm a good, nice guy. I'm basically Ned Flanders, but there's nothing about me that really would ever threaten anyone or feel uh feel courageous or bold or might offend anyone. I want I want to avoid that at all costs because if people like me, then I know that that's how I'm being a faithful Christian. So it so I try to try to break that down into ways that are digestible so that you can see it. And I do think it's something that you know God has given me an ability to do is to see things and to wrestle with them and then find language to to pen it down. This is the phenomena that everybody has seen, but maybe we didn't have the words for, and that's what the diagnostic half of the book is meant to do.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

That's great. So with the loser theology, it sounds like there's some phrases, concepts that are kind of discernible that sound nice on the surface, but underneath are promoting this kind of loser theology. Um, you know, I I'd love to hear an example of one of those, you know, I'm I'm wondering if it's like, you know, we hear we have heard these phrases like in the city for the city, or, you know, um, there's one kind of uh boomer, and I don't mean that in a derisive way, it's just very popular amongst that generation, uh, in kind of evangelicalism about the church and kind of like, you know, what would your city care if your church went away tomorrow? You know, would they would they uh miss you or something like this? And to to to kind of like uh sentimentalized Christianity that sounds like, ooh, ah, yeah, good insight. And actually, when you think about it, it's not actually not that helpful for Christians. Um, are there certain phrases or catchphrases that you're thinking of or diagnosing that you've heard that you kind of pull apart and help help the reader understand?

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah, there's there's a handful of them. They're they're kind of fortune cookie uh flavored. And one would be Tim Keller said, the heart of the gospel is the cross, and the cross is all about giving up power. And when you hear that, that that sounds humble, that sounds um, that sounds wise and kind of a sage sort of comment. And then the implication is, well, if you want to be like Jesus, then you're gonna give up power. And okay, what does that mean? If you if you know, if you if you try to apply that in any real situation, does that mean, well, if I'm a police officer, I I can't pull over somebody who's speeding? If I'm a husband, I cannot uh exercise authority in my home. Um, if I'm a pastor at a church, then I'm not allowed to exercise, you know, lead church discipline. Like those are exercises of power. And if we're supposed to give up power to be like Christ, then basically powerlessness and is is becomes the definition of the Christian life. Um Russell Moore said something like, We evangelicals have prized the powerful over the powerless. And Beth Moore said, Christ-likeness requires us to lay down our need to dominate, uh, to wield power over others and to embrace the humility of serving as Jesus served. Um, all of these things, they sound good. And that's the thing. It's like it's it's all about an aesthetic. They sound good, but whenever you try to put it into practice, you realize it doesn't make sense and it's it's actually absurd. But the effect that it has on people is it makes them question themselves and feel guilty anytime they assert their agency. And you know, that that makes people act like losers.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

It's a really weird thing, and it's something I've tried to uh help uh our church specifically, not that they need that much help on this topic, they understand it, but it's so easy in our day, and it's so common in our day to hear these kind of things. Another one, you know, you'll hear power a lot, you also hear control, and control is a really fascinating one. I love the proverbs when it talks about um how we trust the Lord, but at the same time we make plans. We're good stewards, but we're not the end-all be all because God is the provider, sustainer of life, and his providence rules. And so holding those intention rather than trying to solve the problem by saying, give up control, for example. Um, and that's what a lot of these kind of figures do is they they they'll attack power. They really, which is always ironic because the people who are uh you know telling other Christians don't seek power, don't seek influence, don't seek control, are the ones up on a stage or with a platform that have power and influence and control. So I I find it very duplicitous when they do this. Um but control is another one of those where it's like we actually want Christians to be self-disciplined. We want them to have control over their passions, over their appetites. Uh, we want them to be in control. Of course, there could be some that are uh, you know, trusting their control too much and they're gonna express themselves in anger when things don't go their way, uh, to a degree that's really unrighteous. Uh, but these things are very pastorally uh easy to explain from scripture, and yet we constantly hear, you know, don't seek control, don't seek power. And it does lead to that kind of non-agenic, that pacifistic, that loser theology. Uh, but it's never actually fully applied. Like nobody actually lives that out. They still have an awareness of what's in their checking account, they still have an awareness of like what time they need to be home, what time they need to be at work, they're in control of their schedule. So like it's it's very strange. And um, you know, it kind of in my mind, it goes back to the garden a lot with kind of the passivity of Adam. And that specifically for men, that's always the temptation, is to kind of give in to those uh baser sinful impulses to kind of like uh excuse our our responsibilities and duties by saying either it's not my fault uh or blaming other people. Do you feel like that's a fair kind of uh line to pull there or thread to pull there? Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

It's so if if you know if if a man's uh fundamental temptation of manhood in general is just to be passive, to shirk responsibility, then loser theology gives you an excuse for doing that and makes it sound spiritual. And so I'm not being passive. I'm actually laying down my power. I'm not shirking responsibility, I am l relinquishing my idol of control. And you can you can take things that are duties that are obligated of Christians and you can give them this little twist and you can put a little uh smiley face on it to make it seem like a spiritual thing, but really you're you're doing it as an excuse to avoid taking hard action. And that's the thing. It's like a Christian who is fully alive and fully living unto the glory of God will assert themselves in ways that other people will be will may find offensive. They're going to say things, they're going to do things that uh could chafe against the prevailing norms of the day, the idols of the day. They're going to be assertive. And if if you can, and those things are hard, and and they can even create problems, they can create conflict, challenges, and difficulty in your life. And so whenever Jesus says to lay down your life and follow me, uh take up your cross and follow me, deny yourself. If you, if you seek to save your life, you'll lose it. If you seek to lose your life, you'll save it. What a lot of people do is they they assume that means, oh, I should be passive. I should just lay down my life and act like I'm dead. When really what he's saying is like, no, a high agency life, um, like as a Christian, to lay down your life and to obey Jesus, that will be a high agency life that will put you in difficult situations, uncomfortable encounters. You might engage in conflict that is is unpleasant and difficult for you and difficult for your family. And you're doing it because you have a heart full of faith and you want to glorify God and you're fulfilling your duty, that is denying yourself, and that is might what might make people offended at you or troubled by you or not like you and not find you winsome. And that is what it means to deny yourself. And so it's if if if you don't want to do those hard things, then you can twist that scripture and make it give you an excuse for doing nothing. And that's what so many Christians do, and it plays right into the most common temptations of men, which is to be passive, to be weak. To get strong, you have to assert, you have to exercise, strengthen yourself, both physically and in other ways. And if you don't want to do that, I exercise is hard. Exercise is it's a lot of work. I don't want to go to the gym, I don't want to fool with that. But I don't need to because when I am weak, he is strong. And so you you fool yourself into thinking that, well, Jesus wants me to be a weakling. And because I'm a weakling and because I have a lot of faith, then God will sort of magically make life work out for me. But that's not at all what Paul is saying. Paul is saying, like, when you're weak, he is strong, means you you can do nothing on your own apart from Christ. But in the power of Christ, you can do all things. Through Christ who strengthens me, and strength is the operative mode of the Christian life. A lot of people just don't get that.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Yeah, it's it's a shame that most people don't get it. It's a wonderful uh invitation to find uh the power of Christ um in us in times of suffering, hardship. Um, and really as Christians, we have this uh unique opportunity that that if you're not in Christ, you don't get. We have access to the Father through the Son, and we can depend on Him and lean on Him and trust in Him, and He gives us hope and faith and love. And so it's a wonderful thing, and unfortunately it gets twisted uh like this, and it it's it's really a shame. I wanted to apply it and kind of think of some diagnostics, you know, if a Christian is reading your book, you know, what are what are some signs if if they're at a church and they're wondering, well, is this my church? Does my church have a loser theology about it? You know, what are some signs that that you would say, yeah, that's a pretty helpful thing. I mean, it would be interesting on your website uh for the book if you did like, you know, a quiz or something like this. These are very popular nowadays, you know, is my church a loser theology church? But what would be some signs for a Christian or a pastor that's reading this book that they've kind of been teaching some loser theology in their church? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Well, in the book, there there are each each of the first three chapters ends with a quiz. Um, and the quiz basically is based on the concepts explored in that chapter. And it, I mean, it's I mean, obviously it's not scientific. I mean, it's just something that I made up for the book, but it it does give you uh the some ways for you to to just think through. Um, have I bought into this this type of mindset? And so um I'm pulling it up here on my on my iPad, some of the questions. So here's here's some of the questions in these quizzes. Are you suspicious of very strong desires, fearing that they may be a heart idol? That's one. Do you avoid making a needed decision that would have a significant impact on your life? And you justify that avoidance by saying you're waiting on God or looking for a sign. Do you use vague language whenever you're describing your sins? Do you describe them as wounds or struggles or a disease without specifically naming them so you can put them to death? A lot of times uh in churches, you'll you'll see vague spirituality is the order of the day, and they're not very specific. And a lot of the answers to the problems that you face really boils down to um spiritual disciplines. And by spiritual disciplines, I'm talking about the focus on the inner life, not the spiritual discipline of public duty, but uh pray more, read your Bible more, have better theology, um, you know, fasting, go to church. And it's do explicitly religious things as the answer to all the problems. Um and pietistic loser theology churches, they tend to have this pietistic impulse. And by pietistic, I'm not talking about good piety, I'm talking about a pietism that that promotes you know uh an over-hyper focus on the interior religious aspects of life to the exclusion of all others. Um these these types of these types of churches will often um make excuses for people. They'll focus on being vulnerable, being transparent. And so let's say somebody says, you know, I've I'm struggling with some XYZ sin, the response will be, man, that thank you so much for being vulnerable. That that really took a lot of courage for you to confess that sin. Thank you for being transparent and authentic. Um, if anything else comes up, let me know. And so it's just like you've done that you've done the thing by by confessing it and being transparent, vulnerable, which is an expression of weakness, um, those things are are seen as, well, you've done your duty, but the equipping to to fight that sin and put it to death and the expectation that you can be victorious a lot of times is missing. You know, so a lot of times you have guys just like, you know, uh they struggle with pornography and that sort of thing. Um and there's there's uh there's a lot of emphasis on the struggle and being real in the struggle and don't don't hide your sin from your brothers, make sure you confess it. And that's all good. Um, but what a lot of men need is to be told you can defeat this sin. This sin does not have to control you. This sin does not have to be your master. You must master yourself, master your mind, master your body, master your eyes. You must control that. Self-control is a fruit of the spirit. And so there's an expectation that you will be victorious because you're more than a conqueror through through Jesus Christ. That's that that is seen as triumphalistic, that's legalistic, that's heavy-handed, that is uh robbing people of the grace they need. When really, like what a lot of guys need is just a stiff kick in the pants and to be told, hey man, you've got this. I believe in you. Um, and I expect you to beat it. So a lot of times, whenever somebody confesses a sin, I'll pray for them. And I'll pray that, you know, let's say it's pornography or something. I'll pray like, Lord, I pray that this, that the time that the man is confessing to me now, that this is the last time his eyes will ever see pornography for the rest of his life. And I want to pray that confidence in the Spirit of God into him so that he can go out and fight, knowing that, okay, this doesn't have to actually defeat me. I can't overcome this. That's and being a loser and confessing being a loser and being defeated by sin all the time is not actually sanctification of progress. That's just staying stuck in a malaise.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Yeah, and I'm I think there's a lot of people who will resonate with that because you know, in Protestant theology specifically, we don't really have a good pattern uh of confessing, confessing, confession, uh, and who we confess to, whereas maybe in Catholic theology they have a priest, however effective that is, but there's a place they know this is where I confess my sins. And sometimes there's more rigor um afforded in high church traditions. But I'm I'm curious, you know, we're both pastors, and the way I think about this is uh is, you know, in the in the in the pastoral meeting, whether it's with a couple or with an individual, they're talking about their sin, whether it's, you know, really severe temptations to anxiety, like you said, lust, uh, whatever it may be. I think some people may hear this and and hear something you're not saying, and something I wouldn't advise either, which is that you need to be harsh to people, right? When they when they are kind of sharing with you, hey, Pastor, I need some help. I'm just I'm really struggling, trusting the Lord. Um, they may hear us saying, like, you should really come down hard on them. And I I don't think that's what you're saying. I know that I know you, I know that you wouldn't treat people that way. So walk me through kind of uh, you know, we're getting into kind of granular details, but some uh young man comes into your office, you know, Pastor, I need to meet with you. Look, I've been dealing with this. I don't know how to overcome it. I know I need to put my sin to death. I hate this sin. Um can you can you pray for me? Can you help me? How would how would a pastor who has embraced loser theology approach and receive that and then coach and counsel and pastor versus someone like yourself who's saying, like you already kind of mentioned, we're gonna pray for victory over that sin. What's how do we like walk me through kind of like the details of like if you were teaching a pastoral class at a seminary, how are you equipping pastors to reject kind of the loser theology emphasis and more of agenic victory in Christ emphasis?

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Yeah, so since loser theology tends to overfocus on a particular subset of Christian virtues and tools, then in a pastoral counseling situation, those are the only tools that they're going to find that is valid to use. And so you you might say if somebody comes in and they're confessing a sin and they're humble and repentant, um, then gentle and lowly will be an appropriate response. Um, brother, thank you for confessing that. This is um, you know, let's let's pray for you. And, you know, I trust God, there's let's remember the grace of Jesus Christ that is available to you in the gospel. Believe that, uh apprehend that by faith, apply it to your life. That's well and good. If if a man comes into a pastor's office or somebody come, let's say as somebody comes in and Michael, there's a situation of abuse going on in a marriage. You don't take the gentle and lowly approach if you need to protect somebody who's being abused. You don't say, Oh, thank you so much for confessing to me that you abused your child. Let's talk about the grace of Jesus and how you're forgiven. No, it's like, no, there's a place for that. We'll get there. This is where a high agency pastor needs to have other tools. And before I say that, describe that, Chase, I'll just tell you like this this is something that it's not as though I have arrived or anybody, I don't think anybody else has arrived. This is something that is always in process. So my temptation, my natural disposition is to be the gentle and lovely guy. Um, it is to be kind and warm and that that comes very naturally to me. What does not come naturally to me is whenever I need to be firm and direct. And so it is in those moments where I realize I need courage. I need to, I need to draw from the the power of the spirit to say this thing that that that rips my heart out to say to somebody. And that is what a high agency pastor, high agency Christian would do is like, okay, I this one one thing to do is is is more natural and easy. This other thing to do is gonna be hard. And so I'm up to sit across from somebody and say, brother, you have sinned in an abominable way. And there's we're gonna have to deal with this very, very directly. And it's not gonna be pleasant for you, and it's not pleasant for me. But now let's talk about the grace of God and let's also talk about how to deal with this sin, even if there's legal consequences. That is that is what I'm getting at. So anybody that would think that, well, to not be a loser means you're harsh with people. One, I would say that's absurd, that's a misreading of the book, and anybody that thinks that doesn't know me, because everybody knows me knows that I want to be the guy that everybody likes. And so this is an act of faith for me to try to step into what is uncomfortable and unpleasant because it's the right thing to do. And part of the reason why I wrote the book is because I don't know of anybody else that is encouraging other people to do the same and to tell them, you must do this. This is what faithfulness looks like as a pastor or just as a Christian man. There are duties that are being underrepresented in modern evangelicalism. You're not hearing it from certain outlets that are more winsome and they they they don't have those tools. They don't teach those tools, and you need them. So let's give you a more full, complete picture of what the Christian life is like. And it is actually marked by agency, authority, power, dominion, good works, righteousness, authority. That's what the high agency Christian life is like. And then when you have that in place, then you know, okay, there are times when I'm gentle and lowly, there are times when I am meek and mild, and there are times when I am fierce like a lion because Christ can empower me to do all of those things. So so a fully orbed Christian life has range. Loser theology doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Yeah. Let's get into some not objections, just some common scriptures that are trotted out by people who promote loser theology. And I want to help Christians understand the Bible. I mean, that's part of the reason I love being a pastor, and it's a privilege and honor to be a pastor, is I get to uh communicate God's word and divide it rightly and help apply it to people's lives. But a lot of passages, um, you know, it it and just in in, you know, my own writing, thinking on these topics, it's it's difficult, even today as a pastor, because a lot of the commentaries um kind of have this insipid loser theology and how they apply scripture. Um and so this is like widespread, a widespread issue in my mind, and it's become so commonplace and normative that it can be uh challenging to help Christians understand. But we have God's word and we want to under explain it rightly, is my point, is we're pastors, that's what we like to do. And so, like, I'm gonna highlight some passages. This guy, Tony Beard, not sure who he is, he was kind of critiquing your uh your book, putting things in your mouth that you didn't say, and and I think twisting the scriptures ultimately. So I want to highlight some verses that he highlighted online on July 10th, and I think it's really helpful actually that he cataloged these. I've I've wanted to write maybe a substack or something going through all these same verses, um, because I think these are so easily misconstrued by Christians Day and misapplied. So, like a first one would be if anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all. I believe that's from Matthew. And the way, you know, it's the way he's trying to critique you, and he would probably critique me too, and other Christians who are rejecting kind of a loser theology is like you're ignoring scripture. So, how are we to understand when Jesus teaches if anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all?

SPEAKER_01 38:12

I would say, first of all, Jesus did not say only that. That was not the only thing that Jesus said. And also we're told to imitate Christ, to follow Christ's example. So, what example did Jesus provide for us of being last of all and servant of all? Well, certainly Jesus did not was not washing people's feet all the time every day. Um, there are there are a number of instances where even at there's so there's one parable where you have a master with a servant in his home, and the master says, You prepare dinner and feed me, and after I've eaten, then you feed yourself. Um, there are other instances where Jesus went to someone's home and the he and the disciples were served by people, and they were not the serving ones, they were the ones being served by others. And so what Jesus was doing was there is an impulse to never serve and to to only be the served. And Jesus was saying, hey, like, you know, if you want to, if you want to be like Christ, then to be the servant of all is to follow him and to follow his example of service, which is what what what the what what his example was aimed at. So Jesus did not come and merely wash feet. He did not come and merely um serve people here and there, but his act of service was taking responsibility, taking the sins of the world upon himself, going to the cross and dying in our place and rising again with power, such that whenever he ascended to the Father, he said, All authority in heaven on earth has been given to me, therefore go and do this thing that I'm commanding you to do, which is the Great Commission. So, yes, we are to be the servant of all, like Jesus said, but that includes a full range of activities, which includes command, telling other people what to do, exercising power and authority, and you do it as an act of service, both to them and to God. And so as a pastor, I serve my church and I I serve my church by leading it. And so it's it's it's it's strange because in a home, let's say you have a home where a father says, Kids, I want to show you Christlikeness and you have no chores to do, you have no responsibilities. I'm going to servant lead my home and I'm only going to do all the chores and you never have to do any. That home will be in utter chaos in no time. So the father says, I want to serve you children by telling you, you know, Frankie, do the dishes, Johnny mow the grass, Bobby, go out and wash my car. And you're going to serve me. You're going to do things that make this household run easier because I tell you to do it and it benefits me, but you do it because it's good for you. And I'm serving you by exercising command. Now, sometimes as a pastor, I pick up the trash. I'm the first in and last out, and I do the service things as a pastor, but that cannot be the totality of my ministry because that would not be good for anyone.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Yeah, and I think maybe a helpful corollary here would be when Jesus, because this is obviously Jesus kind of reacting against predominant and prevailing instincts, that um he's trying to paint a picture of the life in the kingdom of God. He says in other places, pluck out your eye, cut off your hand. No one's doing that. So he's teaching in a certain rhetorical pattern and style in order to provoke, uh, in order to, you know, uh get people thinking differently in order to illuminate the truth about his kingdom. And I think with all these, he highlights a few others, you know, but whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all. That's similar. Um this is a good one. Do not resist the one who is evil, but if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him also the other. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. This is very commonly misapplied. I mean, even as a young Christian, I was very perplexed by this. Um you know, I can remember back in my teenage years reading this and then going to a church that was highly moral majority, very proud of our military. And I loved that stuff, but I I felt a cognitive dissonance when I would read the teachings of Jesus and then see what Christians uh celebrate morally and how they apply themselves and self-defense and all that kind of stuff. I I've obviously resolved that tension at this point. I write about it a little bit in my book, but you know, for the Christian who reads this or for the non-Christian who reads this and suggests that, you know, Christians cannot ever defend themselves. And if anyone ever asks you, like if a homeless man asks you, I need money, you know, you should give him double the money he asks. How are they misreading this passage?

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Yeah, that's another great example. So I would say we have to establish a principle and then apply the principle with wisdom. And so I'll do that and then um give an example. So the principle here, I think, governs ordinary relationships through ordinary life. And so if you and I were to get into an argument and you were to insult me or offend me, then as a Christian, I could love you by overlooking an offense. Chase was having a bad day that didn't he didn't mean that. I want to believe the best about him. He's a good Christian brother. Um, and so in a church, in a community, in a family, as a neighbor, somebody next door to you, these are the normal ways that we interact with people, and that makes for good neighborliness, good social cohesion, living at peace with all as far as it depends on us. But there the principle is that that cannot be applied in an absolutized way, because Christians also have a tradition that we would acknowledge as just war theory. And so there would be a time when, as a soldier in battle, as a Christian soldier, you would say, okay, I have a duty to turn the other cheek, but in battle, that is not applicable here. I have to fight my enemy, otherwise, I would be treasonous to my own, my own uh troops. So it doesn't so we have to again. Knowledge, okay, it doesn't apply there. So there is an exception, and we can we can set that as a principle. There is a line where that does not apply in an absolute way. So then where is the line? And I would say that is where we need wisdom to apply it. I think in our modern times, in let's say positive world or neutral world, um, then yes, this is our this is our you know general way that we might get along with people. And in the public square, it's a little bit different because the public square is uh the realm of ideas. It can be more of a blood sport, and we've got you've got a spar with ideas, and so it's going to be different there. And then even in that setting, um, there's going to be times when you're going to have a little bit more of an of recognition, this other person on the other side of this issue, they are a legitimate truth seeker. I am a legitimate truth seeker. And in this back and forth interchange, I'm hoping to persuade my opponent to some position. In the modern world, we have people that know our Bibles. They know that the scripture requires these things of us, and they use those virtues against us. And so they know it's okay. I know the Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek. Therefore, I can just go punch Christians out in the street left and right. And people do this. People think this way. They think I am supposed to abuse you and you're supposed to take it because your Bible tells you to. In that situation, loving my enemy does not mean letting him get away with it. It means pushing back with force to let him know there's accountability for your actions. And I can obey this scripture while also obeying other scriptures, which require me to uphold righteousness and justice in society. And so I can give you an example of this. Nobody who thinks this way would say, well, the slaves back in, you know, uh the chattel slave trade should have just continued to turn the other cheek and to do not resist one who is evil. They would all acknowledge, okay, in that instance, it was right for abolitionists to push back with force and to say the slavery, this institution as it is practiced, is evil and wrong. No, but nobody would say, well, the slaves should have just turned the other cheek forever and ever and ever because they're they were Christ-like. No, it is good that that came to an end. And because of that, we can establish a principle that we can then import in our day to say this is not something that is absolute in every situation. There are times when we apply it. And a Christian, a Christian who's looking for excuses is going to find excuses. He's going to justify his wickedness with whatever Bible verse is convenient for him. But if we can assume good Christian men and women of good conscience are trying to faithfully apply the scriptures, some of them are going to say, this is a line too far, and I'm not going to turn the other cheek. I'm going to push back with force. And my Christian duty requires me to do so because it would be wicked for me to not do so. That also must be acknowledged. But a lot of people are uncomfortable going there.

SPEAKER_00 46:53

Yeah, and I wonder, you know, this is this gets into kind of some exegesis on the Sermon on the Mount. Have you have you done a sermon series on the Sermon on the Mount, Michael? Yeah, a couple times. So when you teach it, um, because there's some, there's this is a highly debated uh topic, uh, which I appreciate the debate. I enjoy it uh throughout Christian history. Um, some suggest this uh is either pointing towards a future kingdom to come. So, you know, there this is act is not actually achievable in this life, it's a future kingdom. Some others would say this is uh has a limited set of application within the kingdom of God, meaning that this is only among other Christians. So within church communities, among Christian brothers and sisters, this is the application. Outside of that, that's that's kind of the end of the application. There's kind of a a split there. Um and then others, which it seems you're kind of getting into a little bit, uh, not to the degree of like liberal theologians at all, but just like there are broader societal implications, um, which you've highlighted like the caveats. I would highlight like a police officer. Nobody's gonna um encourage a police officer to just like let criminals go. Uh, nobody wants that for judges, nobody wants that police for police officers. So obviously there's an absurdity to the way this verse gets applied. When you teach the Sermon on the Mount, just for my own benefit and for maybe the listener too, it what what uh what sphere, like how, how uh when Jesus is teaching this, is it broad or is it narrow in scope?

SPEAKER_01 48:26

When I teach it to at my church, I'm going to teach it to a gathered church context. And so my emphasis will be on what does this obligate us to do in our in the way we interact with one another. So I would probably confine it to ordinary life. The thing is, is like there the exceptions are so are so consequential in this day and age that you often it's it's obnoxious to just focus on on the exceptions, which caught force you know, kind of causes you to omit the relevant applications. So I want to get the the the obvious applications as forcefully as possible. And so I would say like you must not seek strict justice in every situation because you will go crazy. You're going to be wronged every day. People will sin against you every day. Christians, good Christians, can overlook an offense and let things go. That's just maturity. So that's that's the force that I preach it. Whenever I'm considering this more from a theological angle and how might this be applied more broadly, then we have to bring in some of these other arguments. And so I my take, and and this is not something I would be dogmatic about, but my my I'm inclined to believe that the that Jesus left it ambiguous on purpose, just so that these sort of discussions would always happen. There's we will always be wrestling with what did Jesus actually demand of us. And you have some Christians that will have more of a peacenick type of approach. And even though I think they're way off base, I'm glad that they're making the case, because if we if they weren't making the case, then the church they might help to keep the church from going too far in an opposite direction. And then you have other people that are looking at the Bible from a whole Bible perspective, where you see like this um turn the other cheek kind of attitude is not the dominant um presentation of God's purposes in the world from Genesis to Revelation, even into the New Testament era after the time of Christ. And so you see the apostles and Paul doing things that would not be strictly turning the other cheek. And so I'm I would be like, okay, there's got to be some limits. And I'm comfortable just saying like every individual's conscience has to wrestle with what does this demand of you and obey your conscience, but I want to inform your conscience by saying it cannot be this woodenly literal interpretation that doesn't leave room for the fact that there are times when you cannot do what the scripture says. Otherwise, I mean we'd be wiped out in no time. It's that's what yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

It's really unfortunate because uh, you know, I when I talk to there's a lot of low-hanging fruit on kind of the conservative right-wing ecosystem in America, especially among men. And a lot of people kind of reject Christianity out of a sense of misinterpreting uh these passages, particularly this, particularly the Sermon on the Mount is the one they keep coming back to. And they view actually Christianity as kind of this aesthetic, uhcetic, not aesthetic, but this kind of monkish lifestyle, uh, where they they view spiritual, uh, this really spiritual one almost as like a Buddhist monk wandering the streets or kind of like this crazy prophet out in the wilderness, and they say, Well, that's Christi, that's true religious spirituality. That's true. And I'm like, me as a pastor, I'm like, no, no, no, like you're making the same mistake. You're and and because it's been so widely propagated by liberals and by people who twist the scriptures, um, they've they've made wrong conclusions and they don't have their minds illuminated by the spirit. They they see dark, they have darkened minds, and so obviously they can't comprehend these things, but at the same time, we want to help them and um you know provide explanations and and teaching from scripture. And a lot of this in the Sermon on the Mount and other places like James, uh, which uh speaks strongly on economics and justice, um, it's a lot of wisdom as well, it's applied wisdom, and we can't just, like you said, read it too uh woodenly. Um so yeah, that I I think there's a lot here. This is uh really great content. It if we're gonna reject loser theology, kind of wrapping up here, what's what's the way forward? Is it winner theology? Is that what we're trying to promote? What are we trying to promote? What's the positive vision for Christians in our day?

SPEAKER_01 52:35

Well, I call it high agency Christianity. And so high agency Christianity, it starts with the individual and then it works its way out into the into the public life, his duty to to his fellow man. And so it begins with um just an understanding that authority, agency, and power are good things. So God is sovereign, which means God has ultimate agency. He is the ultimate agent in the universe. And then we he delegates his uh the ability to make good choices, free choices, uh, within the context of his sovereign, uh his own sovereign agency. And that means that we have power and authority, which are gifts and tools that God gives us to steward righteously. And so we we need to recognize the goodness of authority, the goodness of power, and then those things are wielded as human agents that are filled and indwelt by the Holy Spirit and sent on a mission to do good in the world. And so the mission that we're given is um as New Testament Christians, we notice the Great Commission. But the Great Commission, in my view, is an echo of the creation mandate, which was given in Genesis 128 and was never abrogated. So the creation mandate, which is to uh be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth, subdue it, exercise dominion over it, which is basically, hey Adam, hey Eve, go out into this uncharted wild of this earth and civilize it and make the whole world Christian. And then, of course, we fell into sin, Jesus Christ, death, burial, and resurrection. And then when he ascended to the Father with all authority, sent the church out with the promise in Acts 1.8, you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. Well, power to do what? Power to accomplish the mission which he has sent us on, which was to be his witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samara to the end of the earth, which is the Great Commission, which is the creation mandate. Go out there, Christians, make this world Christian, civilize it, and exercise dominion, not as tyrants, but as righteous men and women who exercise authority in godly ways. Whenever people hear that, they'll scream theocracy, Christian nationalism, you want to impose religion by the point of a sword. And I'm like, no, that's not how the Bible ordinarily thinks of dominion. Dominion is exercised through godly households and men and women who raise up godly children, they're churchmen, church women, they educate the children to know Jesus, they make disciples in their home, and then that qualifies them to exercise authority in the household of society, which could be the elders of the city, like it was in the Old Testament times, or in our day, there are layers of authority that can be exercised in the workplace or in the civil realm. You could be a police officer, run for state senate, city council, be a boss in your work, uh, climb the corporate ladder, so to speak, to where you're managing other people, to where you might be. If a man in my church has an opportunity to advance in his company, I tell him, take it, go for it, and then use the authority that God has given you righteously and seek the benefit to serve those that you lead by seeking their welfare in the authority in the position that you have. That is that is how a Christian society is set up. So it's not like a uh a dictator that just tells everybody what to do, but it is a society that is saturated with godly men and women who see their duty in this way, and they reject this idea that they're just supposed to be losers under the thumb of tyrants. So it but that does begin, you'll you'll need courage to do that, and I address that in the book. And then the the final chapter is uh 12 disciplines of high agency Christianity. And these are very, very normal, ordinary things that begins with fear God, be humble, work with excellence, take a spirit-filled risk, um uh learn to grow in wisdom, the that very, very ordinary things that if you put them into practice, and and many people put them into practice, we will see healthy Christians, well discipled, that can exercise authority in society for our good.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

That's excellent. Excellent, excellent. Well, I want everybody to go pick up a copy. So, what's the website again that they can go pre-order, and then once the book comes out, I'm sure they can order it there as well.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Losertheology.com will take you to the Canon pre-order page, and that ships on August 4th. It is also available on Amazon and that ships two weeks later. Um, so the the quickest way to get it would be through the Canon website. There is an audio book that I'm recording, and uh Kendall will be available too. Excellent. And then if people want to keep up with more of your work, where can they follow you, Michael? Uh two places, both of them have the same handle. D. Michael Clary. That's D is my first initial. dmichaelclary.com is my substack, and then D Michael Clary is my Twitter handle. Uh so either place, I'm fairly active in both areas. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for coming on the program today, Michael. Thank you, Chase. I appreciate it. Congratulations on Offensive Christianity. Hope it hope it shoots to the top of the charts, brother. Thank you, brother.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Michael Cleary. I know I did do yourself a favor and go pre-order loser theology. It ships August 4th from Canon Press. You can grab it at losertheology.com. You can also follow Michael's writings over at dmichaelcleary.com and find him on X at DMichael Cleary. A few quick things before I let you go. If you want to get into reform sources, get back to our tradition that rejects loser theology, check out commonplace.study, AI-powered research across the Puritans and Reformers, fully cited, 14-day free trial, commonplace.study. And if today's conversation really sparked interest in you or put fire in your chest, come to Burn the Ships July 31st to August 2nd at the Well Church in Boulder, studying God's design for men who don't retreat and show courage in the face of opposition. We're gonna have Stephen Wolf, Joe Rigney, great time, boulderwell.org slash burntheps register today. Don't forget to get a copy of the book. If you haven't, I really don't know what you're doing. Uh, but go to offensive Christian book.com and you can get it today. Leave a great review uh anywhere where you can read the book. Also, it's on Audible, so now you can listen to it. I can read to you if if you'd like me to read you a bedtime story, I can read my book to you as you fall asleep. Uh that would be my honor and privilege. I'm a father, I know that's comforting. But you can go listen to the audible book if you are into that kind of thing. Either way, however you're listening, however you're consuming, don't just leave a review. Don't just read the book, apply it to your life. And if this episode today encouraged you, sharpened you, do me a favor, share it with a brother who needs it, and leave the show a great rating and review anywhere where you consumed it. It genuinely helps. Until next time, this is another episode of Foolproof Theology.